our had a legal shake. >> okay everybody, say cheese. >> and our own ben says leave room holy spirit and ray's, i don't remember seeing that episode of hannah montana. >> leave it on a miley cyrus reference? >> yep. >> that sets us up perfectly. we got to go. time to get to twerk. "morning joe" starts right now. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, august 30th. take a live shot of new york city. 6:00 a.m. you can tell fall is coming. >> how can you tell? >> first of all it's getting cooler. also, we've got calendars in our house and it says it's the end of august. third, it's -- it's taking a while for the sun to get up.

>> it's good head's up, those calendars. take a look at them. >> never -- you can't say you never saw labor day coming. we got a long labor day weekend. the president has a longer labor day weekend. >> laboring. >> he's got some serious challenges. also, some of these other -- we're going to get to syria in a minute. see this, de blasio poll in new york. this guy looks like he may avoid a runoff. we were talking about anthony weiner like a month ago and then christine quinn and now -- >> she's in third place now. >> she's in third place, thompson in second, de blasio out of nowhere. >> great ads. he's a talented politician. >> he is a talented politician. but really, katty kay, first let's introduce the table. president of the council on foreign relations richard house author of "foreign policy begins at home the case for putting america's house in order." msnbc contributor mike barnicle.

msnbc's thomas roberts, and in washington, washington anchor for bbc world news, katty kay. we also have pulitzer-prize winning columnist, associate editor of the washington post and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. katty kay, though, "the new york times" says it all. yesterday afternoon, a stunning, stunning vote out of parliament. had to be a huge surprise to david cameron as well. obviously as president obama. >> yeah, joe. david cameron really shocked because it was defections within his own party that caused ta defeat and if president obama decides to take action against the assad regime it appears he will be doing so without the support of our two strongest european allies. after an eight-hour debate the british parliament voted to reject a limited strike against syria. >> why is it that our allies in the middle east like saudi

emirates, qatar, kuwait and others, cannot take military action, why does it fall on us yet again? >> put simply, is it in britain's national interest to maintain an international taboo about the use of chemical weapons on the battlefield, my argument is question it is. >> i take a question from the scottish national party. >> does he know if there are any plans over the last few days for any military action before next week, planned at all against syria? >> i obviously can't discuss the details of potential action in detail in front of this house, but i can tell the house that american president and i have had discussions that have been reported in the newspaper about potential military action. we have had those discussions and the american president would like to have allies alongside the united states. our actions won't be determined by my good friend and ally, the american president, they'll be decided by this government and votes in this house of commons. >> yes, of course, intelligence is part of this picture, but

let's not pretend there is one smoking piece of intelligence that can solve the whole problem. this is a judgment issue and one which honorable members will have to make a judgment. let me repeat again, there will be no action without a further vote in this house of commons. but on this issue, britain should not stand aside. we must play our part in a strong international response. we must be prepared to take decisive action in order to do so. >> for this house it is surely a basic point, evidence should precede decision not decision precede evidence. and i am glad on reflection the prime minister accepted this yesterday. i give way. >> very much welcome his doctrine that evidence should precede decision. that's a stark change from at least one of his predecessors. >> i'm clear about the fact that we have to learn the lessons of iraq. of course we have to learn those lessons. one of the most important lessons was, indeed, about respect for the united nations. i do not rule out supporting the prime minister, but i believe he has to make a better case than

he did today on this question and frankly, he cannot say to the house and to the country this does not change our stance on syria, this does not change our involvement in the syrian conflict because frankly it would, mr. speaker. this, mr. speaker, is a very grave decision and should be treated as such by this house and it will be treated as such by this country. >> vigorous debate in parliament. despite being in support of military intervention in syria, prime minister cameron said he would comply with the parliament's decision. in france, president hollande has softened his support for air strikes saying syria needs a, quote, political solution. this comes as u.n. inspectors have been ordered to leave the country amid threats of american-led air strikes against the assad regime. the united states has now ordered a fifth warship to the mediterranean sea. yesterday, leaders of congress were briefed by the president's foreign policy team where they were told president obama believes beyond a doubt that syrian government was

responsible for last week's chemical attack that killed more than a thousand people. still, they were told that the president has not made a final decision on either the timing or the scope for any military operation. meanwhile, more than 100 lawmakers, including 21 democrats, have signed a letter saying president obama needs authorization from congress before moving forward with air strikes in syria. joe? >> richard haas, they say that generals ares always fighting the last war. it also seems that parliamentses are fighting the last war. our congress is fighting the last war. you could -- though he is still very much with us and we love having him on the show, if tony blair has a ghost floating around on the other side of the -- you could -- does the ghost of tony blair and george w. bush and saddam hussein hung heavily over parliament? >> absolutely. in all the -- not just

skepticism, almost cynicism about the what the government says about the intelligence was the back drop. it's larger than that. i think something has been going on for years, if not decades in europe, gradual weakening of commitment to defense, preoccupation of -- >> what do you make of o-- ow hm france saying we need a political solution. i would love france to come forward with this magic political solution. this is like richard nixon's secret plan to end vietnam in 1968. there's not one. >> exactly. there's not going to be a political solution to syria. syria sill in the relatively early phases over a prolonged civil war. what's interesting about britain, a country that distanced itself from europe over economic issues and now distancing itself from the united states over strategic issues. this is small britain, small europe. we've ended the era -- >> why is that?

how does europe find itself in a position or britain where it's separating itself from the eu at the same time it's separating itself from the united states on this critical issue? >> this is just a cumulative effect, i think, not just of britain but broadly, of alienation from europe over economic decisions and change in political culture. actually throughouts the continent. europe itself has become whole and free as ronald reagan saw it. it means there's no longer really an appreciation for what's going in places like the middle east or asia, no longer a willingness to get involved militari militarily. >> is this a reaction to george w. bush, tony blair and the iraq war? >> certainly what happened yesterday was a lot of it in parliament dictated by the legacy of iraq, as you heard the labor leader and prime minister cameron saying there. but i think there are genuine concerns in britain about whether this strike would be effective, whether it would actually help the people of syria very much.

there are concerns about mission creep, can you go in small into the middle east, and the legacy of the fact that actually western involvement in middle eastern wars doesn't tend to end terribly well for western countries. and i think all of that played into yesterday. lawmakers said well, it was to do with the evidence, my gut is there is a general sense they did not want to get involved in a mission in syria that was not clear, whose aims are not clear and where the outcome is not clear and where the prospect of retaliation is still pretty high. >> so mike, talking about generals fighting the last war and an overreaction to what happened in the last war, a very interesting phrase being tossed around by sources inside the intel community. they're borrowing a george tenant phrase, when george w. bush looked at the iraq information and said this basically says this is -- >> slam dunk. >> what is this? is this all you have for me? and tenant said, mr. president, it's a slam dunk. well all day yesterday, members

of the intel community were leaking to the associated press and to others, this isn't a slam dunk. in fact, we're not as certain as the obama team is claiming that these chemical weapons were actually in the possession of assad and assad had the authority and wherewithal to order the strikes. >> i think you have a couple things going on there, joe, and that's one of them. the leaks from the intel community and leaks from the military from the pentagon and they all seem to be revolving around one strategic question and i would ask you the same question, richard haas, what is the objective of such a strike? what is the objective? what would we hope to accomplish with a surgical strike after the chemical weapons have been used? >> the purpose of the strike is an end in itself. to say syria and others can't use chemical weapons and get out without paying a significant price. the administration is trying to thread a needle, at the same time reassure people in the

united states and beyond we're not going to get immeshed in syria's civil war which would be costly, open-ended and who knows what consequences. they're trying to have it both ways. enough to underscore the norm against chemical use, at the same time reassure people we're not going to get dragged into something. >> the point made repeatedly, the surgical strike is the result of chemical weapons that perhaps killed we don't know how many, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 when we've had 100,000 casualties stacked up? >> it's the precedent, the use of weapons of mass destruction. from a narrow point of view or the point of view of humanitarian intervention the fact that 100,000 people have died with convention munitions, outweighs the thousand people that may have died from chemical munitions. that's from the humanitarian perspective. the administration saying look we don't like what's going on there, but we're not going to get involved with these reasons, it's too messy, too difficult, we are concerned about this precedent. >> you also speaking of

precedence, you have the president of the united states who two years ago said assad must go. one year ago as charles krauthammer points out today he drew a red line in the sand and then he erased the red line in the sand and then drew another red line in the sand. the president is not being helped by these leaks that says oh, he just wants to send a message and yesterday another leak coming out, he wants to send a message that's just strong enough that he won't be mocked and ridiculed for not sending us. i mean, if he's going to strike syria, it has to be tactical. he has to limit assad's capabilities in the future as john mccain said yesterday, going after the air force or the defense. their air defense systems. if the president's going to actually do anything, he's going to have to do something fairly significant. >> if we've learned anything from the past being pro log it's about the exit strategy not the entrance strategy.

>> right. >> let me ask you about the fact that the president obviously wanted to have the support of the uk, wanted to have the support of david cameron. that puts him in a different position now, not only did his rhetoric box him in from a year ago but now he has people in washington, d.c., like john mccain and others, that will call him feckless if we don't do anything. so at this point, what is the president's best option? >> well, first of all, he -- they say he hasn't made a decision. i suspect he probably has, but he has to first make the decision and second, you can look at it the other way. i mean, if britain is not going to participate, then the president does not have to wait for a second vote in parliament which couldn't happen until some time next week or whatever. he, at the white house, administration officials yesterday and consistently have been saying, the president has the authority to order these strikes. he doesn't need approval from congress. he doesn't have to call congress back or anything like that. he consulted with speaker

boehner yesterday by phone. but they say he can go and so in that sense, the president can do it if he wants to do it and he doesn't have to wait for the brits. >> to oversimplify this, looking at it, joe, i hate to use this reference, it's a bad jenga game, where you pull out a piece and everything you expect to happen most likely will happen. either we take out assad and see syria crumble and other people come in, who knows what you're going to get next and also how that's going to ripple effect into israel. >> by the way -- >> passing out gas masks yesterday in israel because that's where bashar al assad will go. >> israelis do -- basically have said, if syria and iran want to strike against us, okay, come on. they're not going to do it. because they understand this will be israel's excuse to strike back with such extraordinary force. >> yeah. >> that they will absolutely wipe out assad and the israelis

will go in with tanks and hunt him down and kill him. i suspect he probably will not do that, though that word is out there. it is so, though, very interesting, that again, the president has said assad must go, just like he said gadhafi must go, just like he said before that, mubarak must go. must go are two words that probably should be removed from the commander in chief's vocabulary for the remaining three years that he is still our commander in chief. richard engel is nbc news chief foreign correspondent, he joins us live from turkey. richard, of course, has been covering the region since before the iraq war. and obviously it's an absolute mess now. richard, no easy answers. and not only americans, but also members of the british parliament and people made much wiser and war weary given the

half truths and lies they've been told over the past decade as it pertains to war? >> well, i've just been listening to your conversation you described about threading a needle or jen ga game where you want to pull one piece and not have the whole thing crumble. we're hearing similar analogies in the middle east. i spoke yesterday with a veteran diplomat, somebody who covered the middle east a long time like richard haas and said if you want to kill the lion, then kill it. but weighat's the point of provoking it and pointing it in the eye, it only upsets it, doesn't create anything, and maybe it feels good to do and gives you political points but doesn't accomplish much strategical strategically. that's the one thing. the arab world, arab countries, want this strike, but they can't come out and say it publicly. this is a pattern we've seen in the arab world a long time and a pattern that hasn't suited the united states and a lot of

countries very well. where you have saudi arabia wants it, turkey wants it, jordan as well, but their countries come out and make public statements saying they're against u.s. military intervention and then if the united states does intervene and things go badly, then those countries tend to come back and say it's the united states' fault, upsetting the card in the middle east and intervening. it is a pattern that hasn't worked very well for u.s. interests for a very long time. lastly, chemical weapons have been used in the middle east several times. ga mall al yasser used them in yemen, saddam hussein against iran and then against the kurds and now bashar al assad using them. they have been used in the middle east by arabs against their enemies several times before. >> right. richard, question for you, are the turks worried about war widening, if the united states uses military force it could blow back on them directly? >> the turks are really divided

on this. you see the prime minister very anxious to get involved in a war, but again, wanting the united states to lead the way. but increasingly, there are people who oppose him, who thinks that he is investing too much political capital, real capital, into the war in syria. where we are right now, in the border towns around -- that lead between turkey and syria, these areas are now open conduits for smugglers, for foreign fighters, there have been car bombings in this area. we've seen people arriving from the airport with beards and backpacks on their way to go and fight. just a few minutes ago where i'm standing right now, i watched a group of men, all young men, carrying cameras and backpacks on their way off to go and fight in syria. there are a lot of people who don't like that turkey has become sort of a modern day peshawar, heading off to leading to the battles -- battlefields of syria. >> all right.

richard engel, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly as always appreciate your insights. and coming up, we've got political strategist james carville, going to be joining the table. also, indiana governor mike pence will be with us on his state's response to obama care and later, we're going to be sitting down with a recent medal of honor recipient, staff sergeant ty carter. up next, we have the top stories of the politico playbook and college football season opening up. willie geist under the table somewhere. >> and the old ball coach last night. a lot of things going on. wow. >> giants played last fight. >> a-- night. >> and you know what, nobody carried. >> i cared. you were a the giants' preseason game. >> i'm not that desperate. >> you cared about tebow, didn't you? >> he's not going to be around. cut him. >> come on. >> don't say that about tim. >> that was his last appearance. >> tebow time.

you're not getting down on your knee. >> no. >> what's wrong with you? >> kp, can't play. >> let's go to dylan dreyer, a check on the forecast. what is labor day weekend going to look like for us? is it going to be like camelot? >> you know, it's going to be hot in some areas but i don't think we're going to see much rain around here. saturday night maybe some thunderstorms but sunday would be more cloudy with a few sprinkles. we are looking at some of the heat that's in the middle of the country right now to start spreading eastward, already 80 degrees in minneapolis where it is going to be another hot one today. but they will get a cool down by the time we get into sunday when it should top out around 80 instead of 100 degrees. we have scattered showers but nothing really that should create any delays this morning. most of the heavy rain is sitting north of michigan. we do have some slighter showers across the upper peninsula of michigan. the best chance of stronger storms will be back through north dakota and the biggest threat would be for isolated hail. but we are looking at the heat

to continue through the center of the country. 98 degrees today in kansas city and as we kick off the upcoming holiday weekend looks like temperatures will be right around 100 degrees for most of the plain states. 88 in new york city with some of the storms moving in by saturday night. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i think farmers care more about the land

than probably anyone else. we've had this farm for 30 years. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us.

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okay. it's easy to erase any recent travel expense i want. just pick that flight right there. mmm hmmm. give it a few taps, and...it's taken care of. this is pretty easy, and i see it works on hotels too. you bet. now if you like that, press the red button on top. ♪ how did he not see that coming? what's in your wallet? 24 after the hour. look at that, not too pretty of a shot on a friday morning in new york. >> to start labor day. >> little ominous for a holiday weekend. let's take a look at the morning papers for you and get you going for a friday. the new jersey star ledger a

state's appeal court saying those who send text messages are civilly liable if they are aware the recipient is driving and causes a crash. quote, if the sender knows the recipient is driving and will read the text immediately the sender has taken a foreseeable risk in sending the text at that time. 39 states have bans on texting while driving including new jersey. can you believe that? >> so you would be held accountable if that person you're texting is read it and gets in a crash. >> wow. katty. >> disease control says 9 million americans, that's one in 25 people, take sleeping pills to help them fall asleep. the study says people over the age of 50 mostly white females were more inclined to use a sleeping aid. this number does not include the estimated 1 million people who use over-the-counter remedies to combat sleep problems. roughly 10% of americans suffer from insomnia.

i'm laughing because, of course, i put myself in that category occasionally. >> yes, i do. if by occasionally you mean every night i have to fall asleep to wake up at 4:00 a.m. the next morning, i occasionally put myself in that category as well. >> does it count if you just nibble on the ambien or lick it to make sure you don't become addicted. >> does it taste any better. >> a little bit in your system. >> i use the sleep aid of watching preseason nfl football games. >> another knock on tebow. >> i think that's not as good for your brain as a straight ambien. >> send you to bed with nightmares. >> from our parade of papers, "l.a. times" in north korea unconfirmed reports say kim jong-un executed his girlfriend over a sex scandal. saying that the north korean leader ordered his girlfriend and 11 others to be killed after reportedly making porno. the paper cites an anonymous source who claims their families were forced to watch their

executi executions. >> how long before president obama says he must go? >> pretty soon. i mean or at least paris hilton will say it. >> that's -- that's awful. here's a bit better news. "new york daily news," a pair of kittens managed to shut down subway service in brooklyn yesterday. the kittens were spotted on the tracks of the b and q subway lines. yet transit workers couldn't catch them after stopping service for two hours. the cats were spotted again during the evening rush service, suspended for another two hours. the kittens were rescued. >> wow. >> the stop where the kittens were found provided service to more than 15,000 commuters. >> it was not a joke. bloomberg, not out of office yet and the city is going to hell. >> you know -- >> if you see some of the local news coverage of that, there were commuters that were like who cares, run the trains. >> run the trains. >> they're down there catching rats. >> holy cow. >> anyway, those kittens could

now be up for adoption. >> maybe so. >> so "washington post" the artists that created the painting of russian president vladimir putin in women's lingerie -- >> these are our stories this morning. >> fled the country. >> please seized that painting for unknown reasons and shut down the gallery immediately the artist left russia for france. >> of course. >> >> where he plans to seek asylum. >> okay. well, with us now the chief white house correspondent for politico mike allen here with the morning playbook. mike, good morning. >> well good morning and happy college football friday. >> happy college football friday is right. hey, so top story for you guys, president obama is getting help from some high-profile friends for his latest push for obama care. i can't believe it. but this obama care back and forth continues. and it's going to keep going straight through the elections. >> well, it is.

he has president bill clinton is going to be out next week at his presidential library down in arkansas talking about what the law does, the facts about the law, the benefits, what's working. circle october 1st when enrollment begins and joe, politico is reporting that starting october 1st a whole political campaign around it. you will have the president, the first lady, the vice president, dr. jill biden, all out this fall making strategic appearances around this law. they're going to be tracking those enrollments, looking at it as a political campaign, where they're weak, where they feed to be and they will be sending officials based on how people are signing up. >> you know, i'm looking also at other stories in politico, one of your top stories, nancy pelosi, the hawk, tells barack obama to act on syria. isn't that interesting? the names of -- have changed

here when it comes to hawks asking for military force. >> it's really true. and what we're hearing from congress is that they wish that they had been more involved in this conversation. the president talking with speaker boehner yesterday. but certainly on the republican side they feel it's too late and you have this fascinating dynamic of speaker pelosi who during the bush years, of course, was opposed to interventions, now backing up the president. >> you know, we have, gene, here's a quote from nancy pelosi. it's clear that the american people are wary of war, however assad gassing his own people is an interest of our national security, regional security and national security pelosi said yesterday. is that surprising to you? >> it's not that surprising, different what i've been hearing from democrats and some very liberal democrats, in the last

couple of days who are, a, appalled by the use of chemical weapons and many believe, you know, a line has to be drawn, whether it was drawn at the right time or in the right way or whatever, that you have to do something, and be, want to back up the president. everything does seem to become political if washington as you well know. >> yeah. >> and so you've got some former hawks who are saying wait a minute, on the republican side, and you've got former doves on the democratic side saying go ahead and hit them. ultimately, of course, it's the president who's going to make the decision. there doesn't seem to be an appetite among members of congress to come back at a special session to do very much about this. >> the doves are proving to be better fee owecons than the neocons and we have the history of the president to get bin laden, gadhafi, to whatever anybody thinks about mubarak, he is out and the issues with

egypt, but the draw down of iraq, the 2014 of out of afghanistan, i mean, the president has a track record to reflect on that i think people feel confident, like a pelosi would feel confident in trusting him. >> these guys' interventions stir or change the lines between who's a hawk and who's not. ask you a question, the british vote, what impact does that have on republicans given what gene said, the tendency to see everything political. could there be a serious effort in the congress to demand a vote and if there were a vote do you think there's any chance -- >> definitely. i think the more conservative members in congress are now acting the way they acted in '95, '96, '9 7. you see a move away from the neocon positions. the tea party members, traditional conservative members of the house are going to be against this. just like we were against intervention in bosnia and kosovo because it didn't seem to

impact our direct facinational security. what i'm surprised about, we sent troops into bosnia when there really wasn't a clear, direct u.s. interest at stake. we did the same with kosovo. we went into afghanistan next. that obviously made a lot of sense after 9/11. most americans agreed with that. we stayed there too long. we should have gotten out three, four years ago. we're going -- we went into iraq which we found out there was no direct interest here. you could make the argument of all of those countries other than afghanistan mentioned, syria actually does have the biggest impact on america's national security if that as you know, richard, most americans don't, it's been a linchpin of terrorism over the past 20, 30 years. they are iran's client state in the middle east. they are the funders of so much terrorism across the middle east and if they were removed from

the chessboard, so to speak, nobody is suggesting they are, i'm not suggesting we do that ourselves now, but i'm just saying, this is really one of the most strategic targets the united states could strike over the past 20, 30 years and there is absolutely no appetite after fighting all of these useless wars to actually fight the wore that matters. >> you're right. intervention fatigue shall we say is broad and deep. these are all wars of choice, other than afghanistan after 9/11 which i would argue is a war of necessity. you have the strategic states and as you say, precious little appetite to get involved, even in a limited way that president is talking about because he is not talking about jumping in with both feet. he's not talking about jumping in with one foot. this is a circumscribed action he's talking about. >> it's interesting what richard engel said from the middle east. if you're going to -- i don't know what he used but going to

kill the i lion, then kill the lion. if you're going after it, go after it. the halfway measures are going to make the president look weaker. >> people say that but they're not ready to sign up for what it would entail. if you're serious about going after assad and syria suit up for something long, big, and expensive. those people arguing for it, they're prepared to hold our coke, not prepared to do any serious -- they are not prepared to do that. >> mike allen, happy friday. happy football friday. >> happy weekend to you all. >> great to have you. coming up next, tim tebow gets the call in last night's preseason game. with his team down by a score, how well, he did and ask mike barnicle we he thinks tebow is toast. sports next. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman,

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let's bring you highlights. one week away from the start of the nfl season and we go to the giants and patriots. tim tebow in for the second half. rusty start. he gets sacked. sacked. well four times. all right but wait. be nice. once warmed up it's tebow time. >> it's tebow time. >> throws for two touchdown passes including the connection who reels in the high throw

before taking it. can we put the still shot up of tebow that we started with. that one. you know what, he means well. >> he's a good guy. >> a very good guy. >> good-looking cat, mike barnicle. he's got a career ahead of him. >> he does, as the mattry d in the club. >> what a friday. >> the nfl reached a $765 million settlement for former -- he would be a good-looking mattry d. for the players claiming head injuries in the league. while failing to warn players about the potential head risks. the nfl does not admit liability or that football played any role in the development of brain diseases. 4500 are involved in the settlement but it's going to cover anyone who's retired when it gets approved by a federal judge. most of the money goes to payouts to players but $75 million, this is important, also goes to research which for is

some the most important thing. >> it is kind of unsettling that you won't know about what they knew and when they knew about it and if they did hide it, what they're doing now with the research and the education and the awareness, i look at that, that's more important to me than anything else. >> you know, mike, a couple things. you see the number first, it's an eye-popping number but you dig into it and you break down the numbers, it's not really that much per team, per player, through the years. it's just not. also, they -- all of the depositions, all of the interrogatories, all of the information that would have given football players a little insight into what this is all about, of course, has been sealed. there's not going to be the information coming out on how brutal these head hits and cupcusions are for members of the nfl. >> it's a huge win for the league's owners and huge loss for the players and does very

little in terms of going forward, in terms of development of studying what happens to the brain, what happens to players on the field. >> you talk to rugby players and the team is so counterintuitive. the best way to make things safe, take off the face mask. they said, you know, we never lead with our helmet because it's going to destroy our face and that's the problem. they're the weapons. >> yeah. >> want to get this in quickly this is why willie is not here today. the college football season under way starting with north carolina sixth ranked south carolina. the gamekoks early -- >> fetal position. >> early iceman candidate, ja dave yan clowney looking sluggish after coming off stomach viruses earlier in the week. mike davis runs it for 75 yards for the touchdown and finishes with 115 yards. the gamecocks winning 27-10. >> this is what kept willie in

bed. >> nashville for ole miss and vanderbilt. vandy up three with more than a minute to play, jeff scott takes it 75 yards. >> a minute to play. >> yeah. >> ole miss knocks vanderbilt with a late touchdown, they win 39-35. >> i tell you what, i went down to ole miss last year. we all need to go. curtis wants us to go down. >> down the grove. >> we're going to the grove. >> yeah. >> baby. >> think we'll come back? >> i don't think so. >> "morning joe" brought to you -- >> the grove. all right. very good. well still ahead on "morning joe," "fortune" magazine rele e releasing its list of 2013 fastest growing companies. first, a special labor day "parade" magazine why manufacturing is coming back to america. we showed you some of that yesterday. parade's editor in chief maggie murphy will join us today to tell us more along with former governor ed rendell.

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that's the power of german engineering. a follow-up on yesterday's really inspiring day out in detroit. let's bring in now, former governor of pennsylvania, and nbc news political analyst, ed rendell, also editor in chief of "parade" magazine maggie murphy. the latest issue of "parade" is a labor day report on putting america back to work. let's jump right into it now. manufacturing is returning, about five, six, seven years ago, you start ed realizing tha the cost of producing products in china were going up, the labor prices were going up with fuel costs up, shipping costs a lot more, companies in america

started reorganizing. yesterday an extraordinary story about the uaw and ford joining arms, locking arms, 20,000 new jobs coming to detroit right away. i mean, things are really turning around. and you look forward over the next decade, it speeds up. we've got an energy boom coming. the likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years. it's going to get much cheaper to make products in america. >> it's going to get cheaper and the other thing along with companies and sort of the economics that it's good to grow some stuff here, consumers now connect by u.s. products, u.s. jobs. down to, you know, made in arkansas, made in detroit, made in brooklyn. >> and by the way, you're so right. you put brooklyn on something, it's a lot hipper. i was talking to my son joey yesterday, i came back from detroit, he didn't want to talk about ford, he wanted to talk about the watch and it says made

in detroit and it's sort of a hipster watch now. >> and we interviewed an ex-autoworker that downsized from parts working there. pride, local pride. the other thing too, we understand as consumers now what we do well. and i think that the american pride and manufacturing, chinese, middle class, upper class, import food from other countries because they don't trust the quality. that is, you know, something that we know we can stand behind our workers can stand behind. i think we still have a ton to do. i think around high school, post-high school, you know, we're not where germany is. richard rice does a piece in here to talk about the inequality of the wage that we're seeing in the protests and dental strations going on around -- demonstrations going on around the u.s. >> we do have -- you're talking about american pride, that's another thing, interesting coming from my son talking about, you know, the chinola

watch, great watch, you get the sense you're helping the country out. all of that, again, a lot of good things coming together, not just a watch company but for car companies and other manufacturing plants. made in the usa. >> absolutely. >> is going to be -- >> when i left office, i had to buy a car for the first time in 20 years. and i loved the commercial for chrysler imported from detroit. >> right. >> i bought a chrysler 300, in great part because of that commercial. >> yeah. >> they also gave it to you for free. >> i think that -- >> i think the other thing that you really are seeing is that age of consumer really understanding that's the person who's been hit really, really hard by not having jobs. so when they can do something and create industry in their own backyard, they're not only going to support it, they're going to invent it and build from it. i think that's what we want to see over labor day. >> and also, gene, this revolution brought about, you know, the i.t. revolution where everything is localized, even

the food is farm to table here, whether it's made in detroit or made in brooklyn or arkansas, the clothes, this really is a great trend for the united states. >> it really is. and it -- this is part of i think the reinvention of our economy that needs to take place in this sort of post-industrial age. it's just spectacular for detroit. you know, when i was in college i spent a decent amount of time in the city. i loved the city and the idea, you know, the shinola watch, it's cool for detroit to be cool again, i think, is great. they have to kind of deal with that little bankruptcy detail but -- >> not cool. >> but for the city to be coming back, you know, i think it's something the whole country can be proud of. >> you look downtown, richard haas, in detroit, how exciting that over 90% of the buildings occupied. like downtown detroit, is

starting to thrive again. you know, go back there five years ago, a lot of hollowed out buildings. >> two other things we have to do. one, we have to improve our education. we have lots of jobs in this country going vacant because we're not graduating enough people that have the skills we need. the trade deals we're negotiating in asia and europe they're a tremendous engine of american exports. if we can get them through congress a lot more americans will be at work in good high-paying export oriented jobs. >> the high-paying jobs are here. >> absolutely. >> right now. we're having to import workers from other countries to take care of -- fill some of these positions in silicon valley and across the country. that's got to change. >> robert rice suggests five years of high school, you know, that next year of training, instead of that fourth year to that fifth year, i think that we have a lot to do, but i think that we can enter a labor day weekend believing we have glimmers of hope here and should work from it.

>> parade special labor day issue is putting america back to work. it is timely and it's inspiring. make sure you read it this weekend. thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> eugene, thank you so much as well. i'm going to -- >> thanks, joe. >> buying you a shinola watch. >> make your sons proud of you as you walk around. >> appreciate it. >> imported from detroit. all right. ed, stick with us. coming up, david letterman celebrates 20 years with a special appearance from his first guest ever. i don't know if you ever saw that clip where actor bill murray shamed david letterman 20 years ago. we'll see what happened last night. hi, i'm karissa. hi, i'm sherri. and i'm going to show sherri how collecting box tops for education earns cash for our school by shopping at walmart. come on. sherri, look at all these products that you can buy for your family with box tops. and look, four box tops in one box. that's awesome! more cash for our school.

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>> letterman does some funny stuff about that. >> but he does funny stuff about new york but they don't hear it. >> will this get solved before football season? >> i think it does. >> coming up next, brand new polls released moments ago, on america's attitudes towards syria and james carville and margaret carlson are here. we're going to get -- it's going to be a cat fight. we'll get them to fight like it's baton rouge on a saturday nigh night. chuck todd in washington. anncr: expedia is giving away a trip every day. where would you go? woman: 'greece.'

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put simply, is it in britain's national interest to maintain an international taboo about the use of chemical weapons on the battlefield, my argument is yes, it is. our actions won't be determined by my good friend and ally the american president, they'll be decided by this government and votes in this house of commons. >> for this house it is surely a basic point, evidence should precede decision, not decision precede evidence. and i am glad on reflection the prime minister accepted this yesterday. >> i very much wellcom his doctrine that evidence should precede decision. that's a stark change from one of his predecessors. >> this is a grave decision and should be treated as such by this house and will be treated as such by this country. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." we've got mike barnicle and ed rendell with us along with katty kay in washington. joining the table we have democratic political strategist, james carville author of the

book "it's the middle class, stupid" and in washington, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown" chuck todd. "the daily news" headline as it does often says it all. "the brits aren't coming." you see it all over the place. "financial times," talking about the united states, acting alone. "the boston globe" in face of resistance, obama prepared to act alone. "the washington post," the white house, obama will go it alone. "the wall street journal," u.s. prepares for a solo strike after britain and "the new york times" talks about how the united states set for a limited strike after the british decided that they wouldn't be coming. so, of course, "the new york post" also along with everybody

else, talking about cats in the subway. thank you very much. >> america's newspapers. >> oh, my. >> you decide which is more relevant to today's events. we just report and you decide. >> it's friday. >> friday is cat day on the internet, isn't it? >> kittens halt subway by the way for two hours. those kitty cats. kitty cats to katty kay. let's go with the news. we have a lot to talk about. out of great britain. >> yeah, joe. we've been talking how similar this all sounds to 2003, but those headlines are looking pretty different. if president obama decides to take action now against the assad regime it does appear he's going to be doing so without the support of our two strongest european allies after an eight-hour debate, the british parliament voted to reject a limited strike against syria. in france, president hollande

says serious actions cannot go unpunished adding he's ready to work closely with allies even if britain is not among them. here at home new poll numbers from nbc news show 50% of americans are against taking military action against syria. only 42% support it. however, those numbers flip when military action is defined as air strikes from u.s. naval warships. 58% agree that any countries that uses chemical weapons violates a red line. 79% believe the president needs congressional approval. people want him to go to congress for anything, of course. this comes as u.n. inspectors have been ordered to leave the country among threats of american led air strikes against the assad regime. the united states has ordered a fifth warship to the mediterranean sea, joe. >> thank you, katty. james, the president you worked for, president clinton, a guy

that looked at polls a lot of times. >> all the time. >> figure where am i going to vacation this summer, a little strange, but you had dick morris running so we'll cut you slack on that. on issues of war and peace, bill clinton nudged saying you don't want to just have your face down in the polls when you're trying to figure out how to act as commander in chief and suggested this was -- this was a matter that called for action. what do you think? >> well, look, they used chemical weapons. regardless of what we say for a long time, i mean, the germans didn't use chemical weapons, the japanese didn't use chemical weapons. he has crossed some kind of line. look, in 2003, we invaded a country that didn't even have any chemical weapons. now people don't want to invade a country that not only has chemical weapons but used them. >> at the time we had 75% of americans supporting a strike on iraq.

we had before he had used chemical weapons in that time period. you also had a pretty large coalition of the willing, it wasn't everybody, we didn't have [ inaudible ] because he was getting paid so much by the iraqis you remember. but going back to the first gulf war we had assad's murderous father supporting us in the first gulf war. he have nobody here. >> it's context. it's context. the last. >> the last event we had was iraq. and people were seared by that. the american people and the british people and people around the world are traumatized by it. >> chuck todd, as we show "the daily news," "the british aren't coming" if we took a vote in congress we might come up wait similar result. generals are always fighting the last war and certainly politicians are. a lot of people feeling burned about what happened in 2003. they're not going to go for another middle east war in 2013. >> remember how long vietnam

fatigue lasted. it took -- you just were talking to james there, it took bill clinton three years to come around on bosnia and -- on the bosnia situation, it took the public three years to come around on that. remember the initial pushes in '92 and '93, nobody was for it because of the -- of, you know, vietnam syndrome if you will and as pictures came in of the refugee camps and of more pictures of the suffering by those folks, the numbers slowly changed. and so it's not surprising to me that we're less time period away so the iraq fatigue is there. what was interesting about our poll, the default position, right, is don't do anything. now, as you provide more information, as you tell them about the chemical weapons usage, there is sort of like that you can see that the public sort of this reluctant all right, i guess it's a red line, yeah, we got to do a response, if it's really narrow, if it only goes after the chemical weapons. you know, there's a lot of

caveats in here. the way i look at this poll, the president has a lot of work to do. he's got to sit there and explain this to the public, explain his rationale because if he doesn't, then he's not going to have support for this. >> chuck, i think you're slightly misreading the poll. i think when people are told it's air strikes from a -- >> warship. >> from a warship it's different. the two most successful interventions we've had in repeat times were bill clinton in kosovo, not one american soldier died, and libya. not one american soldier died. we got the job done in both of those cases. syria may be different. but i think if it's an air strike from a warship i think the american people will support that. they don't want to go on the ground. >> the point is, he's got to -- the point is, it's -- they don't have that rationale. he's got to go out and explain it. they can't let our pollsters do it in one on one phone calls with every voter. >> chuck, i saw something

yesterday that was mildly disturbing to say the least. we've seen the british parliament going back and forth, cameron and the parliament arguing pretty good stuff. i saw an anecdote yesterday that the president calls speaker boehner a couple days ago for the first time since early august. is the white house at all worried what will happen if the congress decides let's vet this out in public, have a public debate about this in congress? >> oh, it's not just the white house that's worried. it's congressional leaders. the only other part of washington that doesn't want to have to put this to a vote to congress right now besides the president because of the political uncertainty it would introduce here, are the leaders in congress because they know it would be a hard vote. they know it would be a tough vote. they would have to twist a bunch of arms. this is collectively. in talking to members of congress all of them have -- anybody i've talked to acknowledges they think the white house has done a much better job keeping them informed on this issue than they did

during libya. but there's still a little bitterness in congress about how the white house didn't do a good job of keeping everybody in the loop on libya as far as congress was concerned. so that is adding to this whether you want to call it a knee-jerk reaction or not. why the default position for every member of congress is slow down, i may be supportive but give me a chance to vote. bring it to us first. >> katty kay, the front page of "the washington post" this morning, you saw it when you woke up, talks about a $52 billion black budget that has become public because of edward snowden an the nsa leaks. basically information on what we're doing to try to stop the next terrorist attack against americans. this is pretty explosive stuff. >> yeah. i mean this is increasing, the third rail of american politics, "the washington post" obtained new details about what it describes as a black budget for

u.s. spy agencies. here are some of the revelations. the u.s. has spent more than half a trillion dollars on national intelligence programs following the 9/11 attacks. that number includes all 16 spy agencies. for the 2013 fiscal year alone, $52 billion was allocated for the program with the cry gettiag most at $14.7 billion as requested. according to the "washington post" despite the massive dollars spent on the programs, the agencies repain unable to provide critical information to the president on a range of national security. threats. also raising eyebrows from the report the u.s. intelligence lumps israel in with hostile foes like iran, cuba, china and russia as a key target for u.s. counter intelligence efforts. it's amazing how much money since 9/11 is spent on national security and become one of those areas of the budget, joe, that nobody wants to talk about or touch. >> nobody wants to talk about or touch and chuck todd, $52

billion spent, but there are a lot of people, not only in the white house but also on capitol hill, horrified that this information keeps coming out that explains exactly what we're trying to do to stop the next terrorist attack on america and explains in great detail what we know, what we don't know, how we collect information and evidence against suspected terrorists. it is a real nightmare for the intel community. >> well, and what's -- i can tell you there has been some heated discussions between the west wing and nsa in particular because nsa cannot, to this day, they still don't know what edward snowden took. and so the frustration is this, think about this, joe, you're the nsa. you're supposedly this all-powerful surveillance agency at this point. you seem to be able to know

everything about everybody and cannot say what edward snowden took. what does that mean? they're always behind. they don't know what's coming next. and they don't know what's getting leaked next. they don't know what's coming out next, what they need to be transparent about to look like they're getting out in front of the things. it's been -- there's a fascinating little argument behind the scenes in -- between nsa and the west wing in particular, going, how come you guys can't figure out what edward snowden took. >> james carville, let's move on to politics. >> oh, no, man. me, politics? >> we got a couple polls out. talk first of all, a crazy guy that you know. >> yeah. >> terry mcauliffe. >> in the interest of disclosure i'm a big supporter of his. had a fund-raiser at my house for him. >> well, that is an absolute shock. i never saw that coming. there's a new poll out, and i'm going to ask chuck todd to weigh in on this too, this is ppp, that has mcauliffe up 44% to

cuccinelli's 37%. some in cuccinelli's camp would say this is a democratic poll but everybody has seen ppp out perform most of the mainline pollsters over the past several years other than nbc news. let's talk first of all, mcauliffe he has surged ahead and while cuccinelli has said some things that are far outside of even the conservative mainstream you wonder how much bob mcdonald's troubles are weighing him down right now. >> yeah. i would make two things. ppp does perform pretty well. that seems like an awfully high, undie sdooed to me, 19 undecided pretty high right there. i actually think it's more to do with cuccinelli than mcdonald. >> do you really? >> i do. >> i think people -- he's pretty out there and i think he's scaring people a little bit. i don't think mcdonnell helps him that much, but i think this is more trouble to kuch nelly himself. >> don't you think that

cuccinelli who took $18,000 to the same guy giving money to mcdonnell ropes him in a little bit, joe. >> chuck todd, a lot of revelations that came out, i say revelations, wrote a lot in this book, seemed a bit hostile to social security and medicare and other programs that people thought were -- are outside the mainstream of american political thought if you look at national polls, but that didn't seem to impact him but the bob mcdonnell problem seemed to impact him and the fact the he took some money from the same outfit. >> joe he had -- i think the point is all of these are issues for him. he had no margin for error. he needed three months ago, they thought -- the cuccinelli folks thought bob mcdonnell was going to be an asset. they thought bob mcdonnell would be the guy they bring out in the fall to say no, he's not -- cuccinelli is not a scary social conservative in northern virginia. don't worry about it. people said that about me, and i

haven't been that and you liked what i do. three months ago that was their game plan. it's not just that mcdonnell now is a drag and i think he is servings a drag, the cuccinelli folks, i've talked to them, they believe he's serving as a drag, but they also lost him as a potential advocate. this was a guy four months ago that had 60 plus percent job approval rating. >> oh, my gosh. no doubt about it. >> it's an amazing downfall. but for cuccinelli because of his social -- he was counting on mcdonnell to be his verifier to northern virginia to say no, it's not -- i'm not what terry mcauliffe says i am, not what you read in the media, all that stuff and he doesn't have a verifier anymore. >> cuccinelli getting it from all sides as well. the bob mcdonnell problem, him having to separate himself from comments made by people running for lieutenant governor -- >> he's done a good job keeping that guy under wraps. >> he has. >> i have to put out an a pshg

b, milk cartons are out in virginia wondering where he is. >> cuccinelli is getting it from all sides and at the end of the day his own words haven't hurt him so much as the cast of characters, including the governor, that are around him now. speaking of cast of characters in new york, we have christine quinn who is seeming to fall and de blasio, the front page here, talking about de blasio, man, this guy, he's looking like he may avoid the runoff and then another new york race, eliot spitzer who had a comfortable lead over scott stringer, now eliot is tied with scott stringer, 46 to 46. i mean this thing is knotted up. >> and i'll tell you, a hard thing to do is to poll a primary in new york city. but obviously eliot's opponent is coming up and quite note of context of -- don't quite know

the context of it. that sounds like an 8% undecided, like a real poll to me. >> yeah. >> mike? >> i think the undecided, it's almost impossible to poll a primary in new york city and the spitzer -- >> why is that? >> i just think -- well, i think people lie to pollsters. >> new yorkers especially. >> i think the comptroller's race, the spitzer race, i think a lot are undecided about the race. they're not undecided about spitzerp. >> right. >> i think people have made up their mind about spitzer. >> think about it, trying to figure out who's going to vote in the primary and how many languages do you think potential democratic voters speak in new york city. one in english or just not accoustomed to that. polls like new york city tell you this is one of the harder places to poll. >> always have to look inside the poll. in the mayor's race. the undecided are mostly african-americans and latinos.

if thompson can get in if there's a runoff, can beat quinn for second -- >> but the point is, is that de blasio is polling very well among african-americans. he has a spot and what some people tell me think they're one of the best spots, he's married to an african-american woman, kid on there, italian, too bad he couldn't find a jewish jands mother. >> there's -- grandmother. there's time. >> spitzer, knotted up. looked like he was going to run away with this race and suddenly it is tied 46/46. >> listen -- >> joe, listen to james on this, though. because it is -- it's not just -- it's going to be a very low turnout. there's not a lot of enthusiasm. and every one of the campaigns i've talked to on the mayor's level, but this is also applies obviously to the comptroller since it's the same universe of folks and mayor's race that will turn out people, they're expecting very low turnout and they don't think any -- they've

had trouble figuring out how to poll it and don't think as much as all of these pollsters are well meaning and trying, because of the really small turnout it is hard to know that you've got the right universe of people. i mean i think all of these mayoral primary polls should have a margin of error of double digits. even the best ones put together because of the very small turnout it's going to be. >> all right. chuck, thank you so much. it's great seeing you. does -- do you play this weekend? >> we play tonight. >> tonight? >> they're on and ready for this, howard snellburger's fau honoring the 1983 national championship team at halftime. howard is getting honored. >> that's a good one. >> he's an alabama boy. >> he is. >> and an assistant to bear bryant. rebuilt louisville. one of the greatest probably living football coaches right now. >> uk guy too. university of kentucky. >> kentucky yep. >> see you at 9:00 a.m. and

katty kay is saying what the hell are they talking about. we're going to be talking about -- >> the oblong ball. oblong. >> we'll be talking about liverpool soon, i prochls you. they're looking good. james, stay with us. still ahead, indiana governor mike pence says he has, quote, the cure for obama care. we're going to be asking about his plan when he joins us later. also, medal of honor recipient, staff sergeant ty carter on set. for tune's fastest growing companies of 2013, andy serwer joins us with a list. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. so i'm checking out the jetta. 34 hwy mpg. check.

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finally getting what you tuned in for, okay. i know you've been waiting, here with us now the managing editor of "fortune" magazine with the issue looking at this year's fastest growing companies. other than popsicle what's the

fastest? >> thank you for that lead-in, by the way. >> you're welcome. >> the fastest growing company is a company called jazz pharmaceuticals. they make drugs, prescription drugs, based in dublin, ireland. >> operations in palo alto. their big drug is a nar coleprosy drug. for morning anchors, for people who have problems with nar coleprosy. >> do you know what origin of the jazz name is? >> they picked it's because it's collaborative and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. look at jazz combo. that's all i know and sticking with that story. >> all right. >> drugs for nar coleprosy. what else? >> that's pretty much what they got. they have a bunch of other drugs they sell in the united states. >> you can go with one hot selling drug -- >> thank you, governor. >> until it becomes -- >> got my back here. >> always. >> appreciate it. >> what else? >> it's actually see the list is pretty interesting this year it

reflects a lot of big trends. in 24 of the companies on the list out of 100 are oil and gas drillers. i want to talk about that for a second. we are at the beginning of an oil and gas boom in tis country. some don't realize that. hard to see if you live in a big city. in places like texas, colorado, north dakota and pennsylvania, pennsylvania is really benefitting from the oil and gas. north dakota is interesting too. now the number two oil and gas producer in the united states after texas. it's passed california and texas. president obama hasn't visited north dakota in his presidency but the people in north dakota don't seem to care so much. >> shale. >> shale is virtually everywhere except the southeast. >> explain shale for people who don't know. >> marcellus shale is a rock formation where it's very deep and we didn't have the technology to get the trapped natural gas out of it until recently. in my fifth year as governor there were only 70 shale permits for shale drilling authorized. in my last year as governor

three years later 3300 and now over 5,000 shale wells and it's produce i producing jobs, income, helping pennsylvania manufacturing. the best booster of marcellus shale fracking is u.s. steele. >> it's controversial for a number reasons. people want to know if we can do it safely and number two, people are suggesting if we start tapping into this giant resource we'll delay going to sustainables and renewable frg. >> on the cover, america's biggest real estate project ever, what is it? >> hudson yards on the lower west side of manhattan, a game changer. we're talking about the mayor race here and how manhattan has grown and developed under mayor bloomberg. this is a continuation. a $20 billion project that's going to transform lower manhattan. in fact, all of manhattan. 18 million square feet. 40 towers approaching 80 stories. shopping, schools, it's amazing. >> is that the site on the west side of manhattan where they were years ago talking about putting yankee stadium?

>> that's correct. it's a railroad yard. the projects will go on top of the railroad yard. people will say how will you do that? park avenue is essentially on top of a railroad line. it's going to be similar to that. they're going to extend the high line, extend the subways and talking about these cities and the growth and how attractive and appealing cities are to live in as opposed to the suburbs maybe and this is a continuation. >> james is talking about new orleans. >> yeah. we've done -- people moving back, at one time we were the fastest growing city, but what we're seeing is the real estate values and property values really bounced back and you hear people in the region that are saying hey, you know, we want to move back in. a lot of that is attributed to the political leadership. i think we have a terrific mayor now and i think that does -- one thing i've learned in cities and countries and i've worked in like 23 different countries around the world, who the boss is matters. it just profoundly matters who's running the show, particularly in a city. >> james, that's one of the

reasons detroit is where it is. there are other reasons, but they have not had good leadership, mayors winding up in jail, et cetera. so many things that political leadership can do to promise a revi revileal. >> i'm a roman catholic and marine. i believe that who's at the top matters. bad guy at the top ruins the deal. a good one makes a difference. i see that in my life, time and time again. >> like fortune. >> like here. >> like here. all hail. >> thank you very much. >> taking over. >> watch out, joe. >> the new issue of "fortune" out now. andy, stay with us. >> the rim fire in california gross to one of the big nest america history. a live report when "morning joe" comes right back. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman,

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wildfires continue to burn near yosemite where smoke is polluting the air from california to nevada. miguel almaguer has been covering this friar if tire fro beginning. what is the story today? >> this fire is massive, covers some 200 square miles and you have to see what this fire is producing.

we have some time lapsed video of a smoke plume that was taken over about three days. you can see how toxic, how gross this air out here can certainly be. air quality has been a major issue even though the fire has been burning two weeks, shows no sign of slowing down. 5,000 firefighters on the front lines who are battling this blaze which is moving now mostly towards the wilderness. crews are having a very tough time battling the fire because it's in rugged and steep terrain, using the ariel attack. we expect the air national guard of california and cal fire to be flying a drone across this region to get a better idea of the scope and magnitude of this fire. it's believed the blaze can burn for weeks longer. the fire itself could actually burn into winter, they tell us. it's going to be a long battle up here outside of yosemite. they believe the park of yosemite is safe. yosemite valley is not a

concern. also about 4500 structures that have been threatened but firefighters have done an excellent job at keeping flames at bay and believe they have saved this community. mike? >> the scope and range of that fire is amazing. miguel, thanks very much. we appreciate it. >> up next, he's here with what he calls his cure for obama care. indiana governor mike pence joins us next. later, the latest award recipient of the medal of honor. staff sergeant ty carter. more "morning joe" when we come back.

with us from indianapolis, republican governor mike pence. here on the set columnist for bloomberg, market carlson, james carville, andy serwer and ed rendell here as well. governor, great to have you with us. >> thanks, joe. >> talk about what you're doing in indiana regarding health care. you believe it can be a

blueprint for the rest of the country? >> well, yeah. back in 2008, indiana introduced what we called the healthy indiana plan which is an innovative consumer driven health care plan that allows people just above our traditional medicaid program to have what amounts to individual health savings accounts. it encourages people to participate in preventative medicine. it is extraordinarily popular among the enrollees and we just really believe that this kind of innovation is the natural result of giving states more freedom and more flexibility in a broad range of areas, including health care. it's been a real success here in indiana. >> what's the great innovation and idea from your plan that other states haven't done, that other states would be wise to copy? >> the big idea is that when you give people more ownership, more responsibility over their own health care choices, they become chooseyer shoppers. you invariably see people moving

from emergency room care to primary care. the other thing we've done in this, too, we've reimbursed physicians at the medicare rate, not the medicaid rate. the opportunities for access to more primary care in indiana has been significant and, you know, at the end of the day, it's -- it improves people's lives, their health care and most experts recognize that the way you bend the cost curve in health care in the long term is by getting -- giving more americans more ownership and more responsibility over their own health care choices. >> governorer, is this complimentary. >> andy serwer with "fortune" magazine some. >> how does it connect to obama care and how much of a repudiation of obama care is it? >> well, it's really entirely separate. this was a program that was built in 2008 on top of our traditional medicaid program. we used revenues from a cigarette tax to say we want to expand coverage, but we want to

do it in a way that's billed on the principles of personal responsibility and individual freedom and as i said, we call them these power accounts which operate just like health savings accounts. people are able to have that first dollar benefit and whatever they don't spend on an annual base fris their contribution they can roll over into that savings account for the next year. so there's a great incentive for people to engage in preventative medicine which is good for them and good for lowering health care costs. >> margaret? >> does this solve the problem that obama care tried to solve, which is, you need everybody in an insurance pool to spread the risk and that we had a lot of deadbeats in the country, people who can't afford insurance, but deadbeats waiting to have that first accident and go to the emergency room, they don't want to pay into insurance, so we don't spread the risk which is a basic principle of insurance. >> well, what this really does,

margaret, is it goes in the direction that i think is different from essentially the one size fits all approach of obama care. it essentially is an example where a state, in our case indiana, has been able to come up with the kind of innovative program that encourages people to take more ownership in their own health care decisions. they have first dollar benefits. a high deductible policy that backs it up and it's paid for with, as i said, the cigarette tax revenues. i think the difference here, margaret, between the approach and the affordable care angtsds what indiana -- and what indiana has been able to do with the healthy indiana plan, i personally believe that the answer for a lot of challenges that washington, d.c., seems incapable of addressing, is to give more freedom and more flexibility to states. this is a case where the state of indiana was able to gain the flexibility and freedom of a block grant to create an innovative program that is

extraordinarily successful, extraordinarily popular among enrollees, and we believe it also is a better solution to lowering the cost of health care and improving services for our people. >> so governor, while we're on the topic of health care, talk about what some people have been doing to your friend and my friend, jeff flake, claiming he's, quote, not one of us, that jeff is not a conservative anymore because he doesn't support the plan to shut down the government to defund obama care. immediately, even though he supports voting it out eventually. what do you think about those attacks not only on him, but also you scott walker who's also taken this position, basically anybody that doesn't want to shut down the government right now is deemed one of them. and not a true conservative. >> well, to be honest with you, joe, i haven't spent a lot of time focusing on the debates in washington, d.c. my focus has been here in the hoosier state. >> you've got a tv there, though. >> let me just say that i think

obama care is stifling our economy and i think efforts on capitol hill to either delay implementation of this or affect the implementation of this, are well founded. there isn't a day i don't hear from a business here in indiana that the looming cost of the mandates and taxes and the regulation of obama care are holding them back. >> i hear that too, governor. i'm just asking, is jeff flake a conservative some. >> i had the opportunity to serve with senator flake for 12 years and he's a great individual and a strong conservative and i can't say enough good things about my friend. but i'll leave the washington debates to washington. we've got great opportunities here in indiana and we're making great progress. proving every day you can balance budgets, improve schools, roads, and cut taxes, joe. you ought to come out to indiana. we'll tell you about it. >> see if you can get the colts back in the playoffs. >> count on it.

>> mike pence, we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we've got this battle inside the republican party right now. >> right. >> it's basically three people against the world. i mean basically saying you either support shutting down the government, which we tried in 1995, how did that work for us? >> right. >> helped re-elect your guy in '96. or jeff flake is not a conservati conservative. scott walker is no the a conservative. chris christie is not a conservative. on and on. >> this is the problem you got. what i call the famously problem of the georgia prisons is the quality of the immates. may be three that want to do this but about 63% of the republicans that vote in primaries want to do this. these guys know that. when you have 70% of the republicans in georgia that believe in creationism, you got officially you have a less dramatic problem. you have a bad quality of inmate in the republican party. i think it's -- >> said only as james carville would say it. >> it's the voters out there that are driving the

politicians. and so guys like you that say look, we don't want to do this. this is not a sensible thing to do. you got cruz who can ring them up, one of the most talented guys, he's formidable. and he's driving this whole thing and they're scared to death to go against him. >> wins primaries but doesn't win the national election. >> right. >> ed rendell great starter, not a great finisher and the democratic party fought through this until a guy named bill clinton came along in '92 and able to speak to middle americans and now it seems it's our party that's lost five out of the last six presidential races in the popular vote. the question is, are we going to figure out how to start getting democrats and independents voting for us without people saying we aren't true conservatives if we can win an election. >> joe, and i think the parallels of bill clinton is right. bill clinton said something, he criticized an effort in american

performance group that was in our party considered a no no. he stood up, showed some backbone and i believe any of the republicans who want to be president, stood up to this madness, even not with standing what james says about the primary electorate, if they stood up and showed some leadership i think it would be to their benefit dramatically. >> i can tell you what they do, they go to work. they don't stay at home. and blog all day. they're not on twitter at 7:30 in the morning. they may have this show on in the background. may have fox on in the back ground. but you know what they're doing, they're getting the kids ready for school and i can tell you, i always -- i always found, you always have the people that come up to you and foaming at the mouth saying, you know, blow up every building in washington, d.c., shut it all down, and then you find out that the quiet people, nixon's silent majority, the silent majority is inside our party, they go to work, they

play by the rules, they are my dad. >> don't you agree joe, someone has too talk to them. >> don't you agree somebody has to talk to them and talk seriously to them? >> there's no doubt about it. >> i'll tellthem? >> there's no doubt. it needs to be somebody strong. chris christie's a strong guy. you need a strong political force that's willing to stand up to the crazies. like bill clinton did in '92. >> what the rush limbaughs are saying, what they're saying is, either time we do what the scarboroughs want, we put the john mccain out there, we put the mitt romney out there, we try to appease them. if we ever put a real conservative out there, then we'd win elections. that's their argument. >> the thing is, i don't know that rush limbaugh said that. rush limbaugh -- >> he says it, you know -- >> he was against mccain in the primary like i was against mccain in the primary. he was against romney in the e

primary like i was. we just haven't had a good, strong, conservative, main-line, reagan/ike leader. >> that's a lot of qualifiers to find someone who checks all those boxes. >> no, a main street republican. >> who is he? christie. >> our party, a lot of governors out there, i will tell you, when we find that person, suddenly you got ike, you know, winning two landslides. you got nixon winning 49 states. you have regulagan winning 49 states. the second -- would be thing's for sure, moderate's, full-blown washington establishment moderates, do not win presidential elections for republicans. they don't. conservatives win presidential elections. but not conservatives that are crazy that want to shut down the government. >> conservatives -- >> -- the self-identified republicans in this country say they want their party to be more conservative.

that's the problem. >> james, i've been saying the same thing for 12 years, but what does more conservative mean? more conservative means for a lot of us don't spend us into debt like george w. bush. don't spend $7 trillion on a medicare drug benefit plan where you don't pay for a single dime of it. don't go around the world and fight every war against every muslim nation that you can find. i've been saying that for 12 years. i've written three books about how we need to be more conservative. the more conservative we're talking about is not the more conservative you're talking about. >> these guys do not consider you one of them. i'm talking about the hard-core out there, which is say big pa part of your party -- >> to kill a mockingbird, if you've walked a mile in my shoes, james carville, you haven't. they're in their underwear in their mom's basements on blogs, may not care for me. i can tell you, when i walk

through airports, when i go to little league ball games, when i go shopping, i've got republicans coming up to me hugging me going, thank god, thank god. >> i'm telling you that there is a hard, hard core part of that party that says our problem is not we're conservative enough. see, erick erickson at red state and these guys. >> erick likes me, says it publicly. hugged me. couple guys on radio that are jealous. you know what, i let them -- you know what, i feel sorry for them. i let them scream and yell because it makes them feel -- >> i happen to like you. >> oh, god. don't say that. james carville, get the hell out. andy serwer, thank you, margaret carlson, thank you as well. who are the smartest kids in the world? we've got author amanda ripley. she is great. she followed students in three foreign countries for a fuel year to answer that question.

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you were holding a red sox cup. >> we don't hate the red sox in philly. >> okay. hey, coming up next, uk walks away from military action in syria. we'll talk about it with our

panel next. plus, we're joined by medal honor recipient staff sergeant ty carter here on set. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman,

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and military missions. we're constantly innovating to advance the front line in the cyber battle, wherever it takes us. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. good morning, it's 8:00 a.m. on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast, as you look live at new york city. on set, mike barnicle, thomas roberts, richard haass and in

washington, katty kay and eugene robinson. yesterday afternoon, a stunning, stunning vote out of parliament. had to be a huge surprise to david cameron as well. obviously as president obama. >> yes, joe, david cameron really shocked because it was defections within his own party that caused that defeat. if president obama decides to take action against the assad regime, it appears he will be doing so without the support of our two strongest european allies. after an eight-hour debate, the british parliament voted to reject a limited strike against syria. >> why is it that our allies in the middle east like saudi and others cannot take military action? why does it fall on us yet again? >> put simply, is it in britain's national interest to maintain an international taboo about the use of chemical weapons on the battlefield? my argument is yes, it is. >> i take a question from the scottish national party. >> very good, mr. prime

minister. does he know if there are any plans over the last few days for any military action before next week planned at all against syria? >> i obviously can't discuss the details of potential action in detail in front of this house. but i can tell the house that the american president and i have had discussions, as have been reported in the newspaper, about potential military action. we've had those discussions. the american president would like to have, allies alongside the united states. our actions won't be determined by my good friend and ally the american president. they'll be decided by this house of commons. yes, of course, intelligence is part of this picture. but let's not pretend there is one smoking piece of intelligence that can solve the whole problem. this is a judgment issue and one which honorable members will have to make a judgment. let me repeat again. there will be no action without a further vote in this house of commons. but on this issue, britain should not stand aside.

we must play our part in a strong international response. we must be prepared to take device itd devicisive action in order to d so. >> evidence should proceed decision, not decision proceed evidence. i'm glad on reflection the prime minister accepted this yesterday. i give way to the honorable gentleman. >> very much welcome his doctrine that evidence should proceed decision. that's a stark change from at least one of his predecessors. i'm very clear about the fact we've got to learn the lessons of iraq. being we've got to learn those lessons. one of the most important lessons was indeed respect for the united nations. i do not rule out supporting the prime minister. i believe he has to make a better case than he did today on this question. frankly, he cannot to the house and the country, this does not change our stance on syria this does not change involvement in the syrian conflict because, frankly, it would, mr. speaker. this, mr. speaker, is a very grave decision. it should be treated as such by

this house and it will be treated as such by this country. >> vigorous debate in parliament. despite being in support of military intervention in syria, prime minister cameron said he would comply with the parliament's decision. and in france, president hollande has now softened his support for air strikes. saying syria needs a, quote, political solution. this comes as u.n. inspectors have been ordered to leave the country among threats of american-led air strikes against the assad regime. the united states has ordered a fifth warship to the mediterranean sea. yesterday, members of congress were briefed by the president's policy team where they said they believe beyond a doubt the syrian government was responsible for last week's chemical attack that killed more than 1,000 people. still, they were told the president has not made a final decision on either the timing or the scope for a military operation. more than 100 lawmaker, including 21 democrats, have signed a letter saying president

obama needs authorization from congress before moving forward with air strikes in syria, joe. >> richard haass, they say that general zawahiri's fighting the last war. it also seems that parliaments are fighting the last war and our congress is fighting the last war. though he is still very much with us. we love having him on the show. if tony blair has a ghost floating around on the other side of the -- you can -- does the ghost of tony blair and george w. bush and saddam hussein hang heavily over parliament? >> absolutely. all the not just skepticism, almost cynicism about what the government says about the intelligence. obviously the backdrop. i think it's larger than that. i think something's been going on for years if not decades, in europe. a gradual weakening of commitment to defense. preoccupation with the -- >> what did you make of hollande from france saying we need a

political solution? a political solution to a guy using chemical weapons? against their people? he's killed 100,000 -- please, i would love france to come forward with this, this magic political solution. this is like richard nixon's secret plan to end vietnam in 9 198. >> it's much worse than that. >> exactly. syria's in the relatively early phases of a prolonged civil war. it's really interesting about britain. here's a country that's distanced itself from europe over economic issues. now distancing itself from the united states over strategic issues. this is small britain. small europe. we've now ended the era -- >> why is that? how does europe find itself in a position -- or britain, where it's separating itself from the eu at the same time it's separating itself from the united states on this critical issue? >> this is just a cumulative effect i think. not just britain but more broadly of alienation from

europe over economic decisions. and change in political culture actually throughout the continent. europe itself has become whole and free as reagan sought. there's no longer really an appreciation for what's going on in places like the middle east or asia. no longer a willingness to get involved militarily. a real cultural change. >> katty, is this all a reaction to george w. bush, tony blair and the iraq war? >> yes, certainly what happened yesterday was a lot of it in parliament dictated by the legacy of iraq. as you heard both the labor leader and prime minister cameron saying there. you know, i think there are genuine concerns in britain about whether the strike would be effective. whether it would actually help the people of syria very much. there are concerns about mission creep. if you -- can you go in small into the middle east? and the legacy of the fact that actually western involvement in middle eastern wars doesn't tend to end terribly well for western countries. i think all of that played into yesterday. lawmakers said while it was also

to do with the evidence, you know, my gut is there is just a general sense they did not want to get involved in a mission in syria that was not clear, whose aims are not clear, and where the outcome is not clear. and where the prospect of retaliation is still pretty high. >> so, mike, talking about generals fighting the last war and an overreaction to what happened in the last war, a very interesting phrase being tossed around by sources inside the intel community. they're borrowing on george tenet's phase when george w. bush looked at the iraq information and basically said this is -- not much, what is this, is this all you have for me? and tenet said, mr. president, it's a slam durnk. members of the committee were leaking to the associated press and others this isn't a slam dunk. in fact, we're not as certain as the obama team is claiming that these chemical weapons were actually in the possession of assad and that assad had the

authority and the wherewithall to order the strikes. >> i think you've got a couple things going on. that's one of them, the leaks from the intel community. also leaks from the military, from the pentagon. they all seem to be revolving around one strategic question. and i would ask you the say question, richard haass. what is the objective such a strike? what is the objective? what would we hope to accomplish with a surgical strike after the chemical weapons have been used? >> the purpose of the strike is an end in itself. it's to basically say that the syrians or anyone else can't use chemical weapons and get off without paying a significant price. what the administration, though, is trying to do, is thread a needle. trying to do that at the same time reassure people in the united states and beyond that we're not going to get emeshed in syria's civil war which would be costly and open ended. they're trying to have it both ways. they're trying to do enough to underscore this norm against chemical use. at the same time reassure people we're not going to get dragged

into something. >> there's the point that's been made repeatedly, the surgical strike is a result of chemical weapons that perhaps killed we don't know how many, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000, when we've had 100,000 casualties already stacked up. >> it's the precedent, the use of weapons of mass destruction. you're right, from the narrow point of view, the fact that 100,000 people have died with convention munition, outweighs that 1,000 people may have died from chemical munitions. that's humanitarian. what the administration is saying, we don't like what's going on there but we're not going to get involved for all these reasons. we are concerned simply about this precedent and not allowing it to stand. >> you also, speaking of presidents, you have the president of the united states who, two years ago, thomas, said assad must go. one year ago, as charles points out today, he drew a red line in the sand. >> correct. >> then he erased that red line in the sand. then he drew another red line in the sand. the president right now is not being helped by these leaks.

that first say, oh, he just wants to send a message. yesterday, another leak coming out. well, he wants to send a message that's just strong enough that he won't be mocked and ridiculed for not sending -- i mean, if he's going to strike syria, it has to be tactical. he has to limit assad's capabilities in the future, as john mccain said yesterday, going after the air force or the defense. their air defense systems. if the president's going to actually do anything, once -- he's going to have to do something significant. >> if we learned anything, it's about the exit strategy, not about the entrance strategy. gene, the fact that the president obviously wanted the support of the uk, wanted the support of david cameron. that really puts him in a different position now. not only did his rhetoric box him in from a year ago. now he has people in washington, d.c., like john mccain and

others, that will call him feckless if we don't do anything. at this point, what is the president's best option? >> first of all, they say he hasn't made the decision. i suspect he probably has. he has to first make the decision. you could look at it the other way. if britain is not going to participate, then the president does not have to wait for a second vote in parliament which couldn't happen until some time next week or whatever. the white house administration officials yesterday, and consistently, has been saying the president has the authority to order these strikes. he doesn't need approval from congress. he doesn't have to call congress back or anything like that. he consulted with speaker boehner yesterday by phone. but they say he can go. so in that sense, the president can do it if he wants to do it. he doesn't have to wait for the brits. >> to oversimplify this, just looking at it, joe, it's like --

i hate to use this reference, but it's a bad jenga game, you know, where you're going to pull out a piece and everything you expect to happen most likely will happen. whether we take out assad and see syria crumble and other people come in, who knows what you're going to get next, and also that's going to ripple effect into israel. they were passing out gas masks yesterday in israel because that's where bashar al assad will go. >> of course the israelis do -- basically have said if syria and iran want to strike against us, okay, come on, they're not going to do it, because they understand this will be israel's excuse to strike back with such extraordinary force that they will absolutely wipe out assad and the israelis will go in with tanks and hunt him down and kill him. i suspect he's probably not going to do that. though that word is obviously out there. it is so very interesting that, again, the president has said assad must go, just like he said

gadhafi must go, just like he said before that mubarak must go. "must go" are two words that should probably be removed from his vocabulary for the remaining three years he is still our commander in chief. richard engel, nbc chief foreign correspondent, join us from turkey. he's been covering the region since before the iraq war. and obviously it's an absolute mess now, richard. no easy answers. and not only americans but also members of the british parliament and british people. made much wiser and war weary, given the hatlf truths and lies they've been told over the past decade as it pertains to war. >> well, i've just been listening to your situation. you described about threading a needle or a jenga game where you just want to pull one piece but not have the whole thing

crumble. we're hearing quite similar analogies in the middle east. i spoke yield with a veteran diplomat, somebody who has covered the middle east for a long time, a little bit like richard haass. he said if you want to kill the lion, then kill it. what's the point in just provoking it and poking it in the eye? it only upsets it. it doesn't really create anything. maybe it feels good to do but it doesn't accomplish much strategically. that's one thing. the other is the arab world, arab countries, want this strike. but they can't come out and say it publicly. and this is a pattern we've seen in the arab world for a long time. a pattern that hasn't suited the united states and, frankly, a lot of countries very well. where you have saudi arabia wants it, turkey wants it, jordan as well. but their countries come out and make public statements saying they're against u.s. military intervention. then if the united states does intervene and things go badly, then those countries tend to come back and say, it's the united states' fault, upsetting

the apple cart in the middle east and intervening. and it is a pattern that hasn't worked very well for u.s. interests for a very long time. lastly, chemical weapons have been used in the middle east several times. al nasr used them in yemen. you had saddam hussein use them against iran and then against the kurds. you've had bashar al assad using them. so they have been used in the middle east by arabs against their enemies several times before. >> richard, question for you. are the turks particularly worried about war widening? are they worried if the united states use military force it could somehow blow back on them directly? >> the turks are really divided on this. you see the prime minister very anxious to get involved in a war. but, again, wanting the united states to lead the way. but increasingly, there are people who oppose him, who thinks that he is investing too much political capital, real capital, into the war in syria.

where we are right now, in the border towns around -- that lead between turkey and syria, these areas are now open conduits for smugglers, for foreign fighters. there have been car bombings in this area. we've seen people arriving in the airport with beards and backpacks on their way to go and fight. where i'm standing right now, i watched a group of men, all young men, carrying cameras and backpacks, on their way off to go and fight in syria. and there are a lot of people who don't like that turkey has become sort of a modern day peshawar, heading off to -- leading off to the battlefields in syria. >> oh, wow, hey, richard engel, thank you. we greatly, as always, appreciate your insights. coming up on "morning joe," we're going to be sitting down with an american hero, staff sergeant ty carter joins us. and he was recently of course awarded the medal of honor by president obama. also, we'll have colonel jack

jacobs with us. plus, we're going to be talking to reverend elizabeth eaton. the first woman to become bishop of evangelical lutheran church in america. for our faith on friday segment. first, here's dylan dreyer with a check on the forecast. >> we are going to see a pretty decent weather to kick off this holiday weekend, especially on saturday, where most of the country looks fairly bright. we are look at some scattered showers and storms to make their way into the east coast. mostly late in the day on saturday. and then on sunday, it looks like it's going to hang out a little while. scattered showers and storms up and down the east coast. same goes for monday as well. out west of course we are focusing on the rim fire. and we have this amazing time lapse video. just look at what happens in that area. this is from august 24th to august 28th. this is now the fifth largest fire in california's history with 200,000 acres burned. the good news here is the weather is helping. we're not going to see a lot of

rain. that would help the most. but humidity levels are coming up. it's up to about 40% now. winds are easing. so it's not spreading as rapidly. it still is only 30% contained right now. we'll watch the weather in that area. you are watching "morning joe."

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it was chaos. the blizzards of bullets and steel into which ty ran not once but perhaps ten times and doing so he displayed the essence of true heroism. not the urge to surpass all others at whatever cost but the urge to serve others at whatever cost. >> on monday, president obama awarded the medal of honor to army staff sergeant ty carter for his valor in a battle in 2009 in afghanistan. where hundreds of taliban fighters launched a coordinated attack on his unit's outpost. here to tell his story, staff sergeant ty carter, along with another member of the exclusive medal of honor club, even though they don't really -- if they have a club, they don't actually let him come to the meetings. we speak of course of retired army colonel jack jacobs. >> they just can't see me because they're looking straight -- >> oh, stop with the short jokes already, quit it!

extraordinary, extraordinary story here with ty. i've got to say also i'm glad we are once again recognizing the men and women of valor that did extraordinary things at war. >> but not as often as we should. >> not as often as we should. >> ty will tell you there are a lot of people who are brave on every day in combat. and maybe they did things that nobody saw. people saw them and they themselves were killed. so we represent all those who are not here to wear the medal. >> mike. >> sergeant carter, first of all, it's an honor for us to have you here. yesterday, we were in detroit and we had justin verlander from the detroit tigers on who committed $1 million of his own money to a program he called wins for warriors, which is intended to address ptsd among veterans. in the medal of honor services that were held at the white house for you, the president mentioned your ability, your

willingness, to talk about -- to talk about ptsd in order to avoid the stigma that is often attached to people who have soldiers, veterans who have ptsd. tell us about that. >> well, first, thank you for being here -- >> no, thank you. >> thank you so much. >> one of the things that in order to remove the stigma is to change the name. or actually just remove the "d." you call it posttraumatic stress disorder. people ultimatically think there's something chemically wrong with me. if you call it posttraumatic stress syndrome, then it's, okay, i've got a syndrome. it's a natural reaction to a traumatic experience. it's the same thing, if you touch a hot pan, you're going to remember that and you're going to flinch. and for the rest of your life, because you probably did this as a little kid, you're going to remember, don't touch that pan because it could be hot. that goes up to the baseball

player who receives a high pitch and hits him in the head. for the next several pitches, he might be thinking, i'm going to get hit in the head. or car accident, avoiding that intersection. or something more serious as a child abuse or sexual assault or rape. these are all forms of posttraumatic stress. natural reaction to try to remember and avoid those situations. so veterans returning home from combat, they've seen things that will effect them for rest of their life. >> they've seen things that the mind just can't wrap -- you know, wrap around. if you're next to a buddy who you see, you know, get shot through the back of the head with, you know, from a sniper, you come home and your mind, i guess, keeps replaying it and replaying it. because the mind is trying to grab a hold of something that doesn't seem real. when you're in a grocery store

in poughkeepsie. >> it causes you to remember. it causes you to remember in very unique or uncomfortable spots. and then you've got the involuntary motion response. you start teari ining up because pain of living through that experience again. >> in a setting around people, like mike and myself and everybody in your family that has no idea, and will never have any idea of what you've been through. so there's the isolation of it too. >> plus, how many people have lived through that. so how many people can you talk to who understand what you're going through. there's very few. i've had the fortune of having a lot of people come up and give me their story. i wish i had more training so i can assist them further but i just try to refer them to somebody who has -- >> how important is that, to have the community, to be able to talk to somebody like that and just say to yourself, oh, god, you know, i love my wife or i love my mom but they'll just

never understand how great to talk to a comrade that's been through this. >> it's not just that. you love your wife, you love your family. you sometimes don't want to talk to them because you don't want to put them through the same pain you felt. so you try to protect them. in the end, it's destroying your quality of life and it's affecting your family and it gets to a point where they may choose not to be around you anymore because it gets to that point. that's why we need to talk. talking to somebody is the first step. >> let me ask you this. mike, maybe you know. is there anything out there -- we've had an i.t. revolution, in case anybody hasn't noticed. there's google chat. do we have something that allows a veteran who's been through hell that doesn't have anybody to talk to to link up with other -- >> the military establishment

does. each service has its own organization that attempts to get them through this when they're on active duty. the veterans administration. >> talking to other -- >> correct. also talking to clinical people before they're separated from the service. the veterans administration which is fragmented in a wide variety of places around the country is also working on it but it is fragmented. so there's no central clearing house for this sort of thing as far as i know. that's one of the things that sergeant carter's trying to address. >> there just aren't enough though. >> there aren't enough. >> there aren't enough facilities. there aren't enough -- i mean, the extended travel that some veterans, depending on where they live in this country, have to go to get to a v.a. clinic is extraordinary. >> i've only gotten minor experience with v.a. clinics outside the military in between the marine corps and the army. so i can't really comment on that. what i can comment on is my own

experience with the leadership i had. and also at fort carson. they were able to see a change in me. all you notice is what you're feeling or what you want to do or that kind of thing. it's the other people that said, wow, he's gotten really quiet or he just spends a lot of time by himself. it's your family and friends that see it first. hopefully they have the courage to tell you, hey, there's something wrong. and noticing and telling yourself, yes, there is something wrong, is the first step. the next step is then communicating with others about it. and that's the next biggest thing from removing the "d" from posttraumatic stress disorder is getting rid of the stigma to where service members and family members who are experiencing to actually feel confident they're not going to be mistreated if

they go and get help. i'm trying to plan out and trying to get the resources for. and once we get people going to the places that will give them help, then we can know where to put resources. this town may have more people than this town. so you just have to find out where it is at. >> let us know how we can help. whether it's resources or just getting the good word out. obviously, we're honored to have you here. we thank god for, you know, the lives you've saved and all the things you did in afghanistan, but this new fight that you're fighting, so extraordinarily important for so many others that have come home. thank you so much for that too. >> thank you, it's been a pleasure being here. >> all right, thank you so much, staff sergeant ty carter and colonel jack jacobs, thank you as well. greatly appreciate it. coming up next, the smartest

kids in the world -- certainly not some of my kids, i'm joking, i got a few smart ones. if you have 87 kids like you and me, there's going to be a couple clunkers. you play the odds. exactly. that's awful. amanda ripley here. she's traveled across the world to answer that question it and the extraordinary people she met is part of a remarkable story next. ion. when the world called for speed... ♪ ...when the world called for stealth... ♪ ...intelligence... endurance... affordability... adaptability... and when the world asked for the future. staying ahead in a constantly evolving world. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. that's the value of performance. hi, hi, i'm sherri. and i'm going to show sherri how collecting box tops for education

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hi, everyone, my name is tom. i'm starting my senior year. >> there's a lot more respect for the teachers. you could tell people took their education a lot more seriously than america. >> hi, i'm eric, from minnesota. i'm spending one year in south korea. it's all rote men rowization and pressure cooker situations in which they have all the stress put on them. >> i'm studying abroad in finland. i'm from oklahoma. students here care more. they understand that it's important. they see the reaction, how what they do now will affect them. it's more real to them. >> those are students who left american schools and went abroad for a different type of education experience. author amanda ripley tells us their stories in the new book "the smartest kids in the world"

and how did they get that way, how did they get that way? >> well, it's actually really good news because these countries weren't really always that smart. >> what did they do? >> the first thing they did was they shut down all their teacher training colleges and moved them to the most elite universities in the land. so you had to be in the top 20% your graduating high school class to get -- to even think about becoming a teacher. true in korea as well. you had to be in the top 5% to an elementary school teacher in korea. >> what's another country that's done it right? >> finland is probably the best example of doing it right without going, making kids crazy. korea's done the -- gotten to the same place in a very grueling fashion. so kids are working night and day. >> we heard in the clip rote learning. i've heard a lot of chinese students always complain about how they're being taught. they actually say, we, we're all chasing china.

they're going, teach us to think like americans. how do we think outside the box? how can we be like that steve jobs guy? we know it's not just opening up our head and cramming information in there. >> right, everybody in china thinks everything in the u.s. is perfect in our schools and we think everyone there is -- it's a very funny situation. look, i think the one thing we know is we're sort of systematically under estimating what our kids can do. all of our kids. and particularly -- >> let me ask you that. put numbers back up. those are just poor kids in inner cities dragging us down. i've actually seen other statistics that show, hey, white suburban kids from wealthy neighborhoods, not exactly tearing it up either. >> especially in math and science. we do better in reading all the way around. but in math, even our richest kids are performing 18th in the world. and our rich kids are way richer. >> why? >> i think part of it is, we have never taken math and

science as seriously as these countries. one of the things that i hadn't expected from following these kids around is that kids pick up on signals, you know, so it's not just the teacher policies or the curriculum or other things. kids pick up on whether school is serious and math is serious. only half of fourth graders say they're learning in math. this something that starts very early. >> is it possible to achieve a happy medium, a mix and match of what is on serbed overseas? the kid eric, 19, goes to school in korea and stunned because the kids in korea fall asleep during the day. they have little pillows in their arms to sleep during the day because they cram all night long. i don't want my kids cramming all night long. how do we -- is it possible to get -- >> that's not working smart, right. everyone in korea will tell you, this is not a model. some the things are very exciting but the overall model is not healthy. i will tell you there are schools within the u.s., some schools that are take the same international tests. the individual schools are outperforming every kid in

finland and poland and south korea. we have other schools that are also 94% middle or upper income kids and are performing below average for the developed world. so we're starting to be able to see inside these schools in a way we couldn't before which is really exciting. and i find if you actually talk to kids, if you ask students, they will tell you how to get that balance. they will tell you what's wrong and what could be better. >> the book is "the smartest kids in the world." amanda ripley, we've got a lot more questions for you. i know, thomas, you've got -- >> $4 million a year teacher in this book. so pick it up and learn how you can make $4 million a year if you're a teacher. or want to be a teacher. >> we want to talk to you again very soon and expand this conversation out. this is fantastic. thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. coming up next, we've got the very first woman to become the bishop of the evangelical church in america. she is with us. plus our very strange week in review when we return on "morning joe."

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a 90 minute church service. there just isn't time for that. unless you subscribe to lutherans on line, yes. we'll skip the sermon. no need to linger on that. >> my brothers and sisters -- >> and then you scroll to the end here. >> in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit, amen. >> there you go. the confession of sin there. >> you have sinned. >> that was prairie home companion. on new ways to be a practicing lutheran. our next guest says there's much more to the modern lutheran church then tales of potluck dinners. she is with us next. i'm tony siragusa and i'm training guys who leak a little,

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with us now from chicago, the first woman to become bishop of the evangelical lutheran church in america, elizabeth eaton. thank you so much for being with us. for those who don't know what an evangelical lutheran is other than what they've seen in garrison keeler's skits what is garrison missing here? >> that's a wonderful caricature of the sort of modest shy

scandinavian lutheran. our church really has changed. we'd always joke -- various colors of jell-o and any green beans. now growing with latino and also african national churches. we've got a lot of different flavors in our potlucks now. >> what's the greatest challenge for your church as you take over? >> i think -- i won't be taking over, god's in charge, so that's one comfort to me. our challenge with any other christian domination in this country is we're becoming an increasingly secular society in the united states. >> and talk about that secularism and how that's impacting society and also impacting your own church. >> well, i think pretty clearly in the '50s the entire christian movement had a privileged place in our society. stores were closed on sunday and no kids were playing soccer games on sundays. i don't think people were playing soccer in america then. that's not the case now. so we can't count on that

cultural accept. to have people coming, flocking to our churches. however, the roman empire was not giving christians off and they managed to be good missionaries. we're going to have to become missionaries again. >> this is thomas roberts. i wanted to ask you, why this is certainly -- as you say, god is in charge, but you are going to be at the helm for those of the lutheran faith. explain what that means to you from where you come from personally but also to how you are an example of a woman in leadership in religion and there aren't many of them as we look across at all the different religions we have. >> well, actually, women have been in leadership in religion since the beginning of the christian movement. maybe just not so publicly in that. my mother was an informative influence on me as were all the women and all of the women of the elca groups doing sewing circles. it just wasn't this public and noticeable. i'm looking forward to the day

when the first woman anything is no longer a news story. but having said that, i'm deeply grateful for this opportunity to serve in this way. and i really do hope to be a voice for the good news of the gospel. this business about grace, that we're loved and deeply cared for by a god who love us. and because of that, that sets us free to love the world and be in service to the world. >> by the way, thomas, women have been running the southern baptist church for centuries. we just don't admit it. >> that's exactly right. >> women run every church. it's just whether the church wants to admit it or not. >> every household too. >> i learned that from my mom and my grand mom. >> any reference to have cross denominational, so there can be some kind of focus across denominations on social issues, politics, so forth? >> well, our denomination has

been very active in building bridges amongst other christian denominations. in fact, we've been engaged in interfaith dialogues as well. particularly so we can have a more unified voice as we're talking about things, about the need for reform and criminal justice in this country or immigration reform or actually just caring for those who are the least -- or perhaps the most vulnerable in our society. how can we do that together? we're more effective together than we are separately. >> all right, thank you so much, bishop. by the way, i just got to ask, do bishops deliver sermons every sunday still or do you get to sit in the congregation and listen? >> oh, no, no, hopefully i'll be out there preaching. and we're open sundays so come on in sometime. >> okay, we will do that. i will bring the jell-o. actually, that's the old lutheran church. thanks so much. coming up next, the "morning joe" week in review and what, if anything, did we learn? [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman,

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controversial. >> it begins with a "t," i invented it. >> i'm sorry, didn't hear the second question. >> that's okay, it wasn't that good of a question anyway. senator bob corker, thank you. >> this conflict cannot be contained within syria and we have to understand that and that's why we've got to help these people get rid of bashar assad. >> officials here at the pentagon are operating as if this is, in fact, a done deal. and they expect attacks as early as perhaps the end of this week. >> we ought to celebrate that americans gave their lives for a better america for everybody. >> i've met with people and they told me they don't have much money but the money they do have is spent on their family and on their lions. as long as i can give people something to smile about here on game day, especially here in michigan, it means it was all worth it.

>> you've got a ford -- >> f-150, 1993. >> rattner. >> how many do you have, steve? >> two, maybe one other, i have to think about that. >> oh, my god, mitt romney. >> i don't have any cadillacs. >> it's mustang. i'm not going to ride off into the sunset with jerry. >> you've worked here for 27 years. you will have wasted everything at ford here. >> great, great event yesterday in detroit. >> get to keep any of those cars? >> no. they wouldn't let us. what did you learn? >> it's a good thing america's got great young people like ty carter. great things on the battlefield but keeps it up off the batt battlefield. >> i learned you're a little too cozy with james carville. >> he says he likes me, that's

bad. >> i learned any attack against syria is not going to overthrow assad and not going to keep him from gassing his own citizens again. >> i learned a lot military skepticism internally about this. a lot. i hope you guys have a great labor day weekend. i'm always so tired. this is friday, right? >> yes. >> it is the fall and we're not going into memorial day weekend, right? >> no, it's labor day. >> great, then i can go. the way i know it is, because alabama's going to win on saturday night. thanks for watching us this week. if it's way too early, it's "morning joe." stick around because "the fix" is next. have a great labor day weekend. roll tide. one big ally opts out. after parliament shoots down the uk supporting a strike on syria, prime minister cameron says he will act accordingly. president obama's team is pushing forward. back here at home, top ad